GLADE Team Project: Dark Magic

[Mark]

Here is a drawing of all the accessories a Shadow Walker should have.  This is to be mixed and matched. 

I was trying to model the Shadow Walker yesterday, and I wondered what the community thought it should look like.  I remember John.d.h saying that maybe we could go with a complete concept overhaul, but I will let you decide.  When I envision the Shadow Walker, I imagine a once powerful beastly lord that is a servant of the Grim Reaper.   He is clothed similarly to the style of his ancient origins, in the Ancient Greek muscled cuirass, with a Horned Corinthian helmet.  Instead of having arms or legs he bears hideous bones.  His immense strength affords him the use of a giant forked Zweihander.  But in my opinion, this is too similar to the Ghost armor, espectially the chest armor.  When modman and I first designed the concept he wore no chest protection, with his bare ribs showing.  I don’t know what people think it should look like, but the above image shows my imaginations variations. Please, describe each part of him you think should be used if you want your opinion to be heard.   
Now I will describe each part.  The first section is Heads. 
*Indicates my preference
*H. A.: A plain Corinthian helmet with distinctive eye holes and a nose guard. 
H.B.: A plain Skull with an evil grin in its eyes.  It could have“Glowing” eyes.
H.C.: A pumpkin head.  Little description needed here.  Just a small thought of mine, a joke really.
H.D.: A fiery flame that constantly moves.  Would add a bit of evil to his look, but remove all sophistication. 
H.C.: No head at all.  Maybe it would look cool, one thing is for sure, it would reduce the poly count no doubt.
Head Plumes:
H.P.A.: Spartan plume.  Similar to the ones worn be Greek hoplites. 
H.P.B.: Simple pair of feathers attached to either side of head. 
*H.P.C.: [Not drawn] A pair of large horns mounted on the helmet.  This would add theme to the unit.

Bodies:
*B.A.: Muscled Cuirass with semi-decorative Linothorax-style Bronze riveted leather loin guards.  I think this adds a little bit of a dangerous look to unit.  To me it says “Look at me you foolish mortal, you don’t look half as good as I do!”  Sadly, something similar to this is also on the Ghost Armor in Dark Magic, and really doesn’t feel right because of it.
B.B.: A simple skeleton.  This is what Modman originally had in mind, but it was put aside for the Cuirass.  Now I am reconsidering it.
B.C.: A skeleton with a robe and giant spiked pauldrons. This looks cool, but screams MAGE so loud I might have to hold my ears.  Besides, this is what the acolyte is wearing, so it really isn’t the best option. 

Weapons:  I have really decided on giant swords being the weapon, because they are the mark of not only a strong and rich warrior, but a highly skilled one as well.  Lately I have leaned towards the Zweihander style swords, so you are the judge. 
W.1.: Giant knightly sword.  Similar to the tech one, just resized twofold.
W.2.: 1400s Rapier.  A narrow, slashing-stabbing combination blade that was the mark of a master swordsman.
W.3.: Flamberge.  A curved bladed variation on the Zweihander, it allowed the user to catch the enemies weapon and manipulate it from a distance, as well as being able to stab, slash and hack just like a normal Zweihander. 
W.4.: Zweihander.  A magnificently difficult and tiring weapon to wield, the Zweihander could crack the stout shafts of pikes and do even more damage to the pikemen. 
*W.5.: A Zweihander style trident/man catcher.  I like how the blade is widened to provide two strong leaf-shaped blades.  I like this one because it looks very cool, yet outlandish enough to be fitting.
Hilts for the sword
W.H.1.: A large hilt that has a ball of amber with a shrunken skull inside.
W.H.2.: A simple hilt with a skull attached.
W.H.3.: A claymore hilt with thin crossguards and elegant trappings.
*W.H.4.: A classic Zwei Hander hilt that has a second grip to allow extra control.
W.H.5.: A katana hilt with a network of tassels on the end.  I personally just put this down as an extra option. 

What do you think?

[~Phoenix~]

Id think on a katana/scimitar design but long and thick(like the y as long and the z as thick not the x)

[Fluffy203]

lmfao i think you spent too much time doing that , why didn't you just model it

[Kung Fu Panda]

Mark what do you think about something similar to the sword of the Persian sword man and the Dominion officer? Well no offense coz you might think 'FOR ALL THE WORK THAT I DID!!'
otherwise I agree with Loronal - a long and thin (if possible make it as dark black or red as possible) blade with sort of horns around the hilt - like a scimitar
I believe that should give it a very effective 'evil' look
That's what my imagination tells me.. I'll edit my post if I get another idea and if no one has posted after me

[John.d.h]

This is totally up for discussion, but here are some possibilities for what I think the Shadow Walker could be like.

Version #1) The Shadow Walker was once a mighty swordsman until the forces of darkness corrupted his mind and warped his body, making him something not quite human.  He is quite strong but has lost some control over himself, so he wields a large sword that only the mightiest of mortal men could lift, but he swings it with one hand in a clumsy sweeping motion and he walks unhindered by his armor, but with an awkward shambling gait due to his twisted body.  He wears heavy spiked plate armor and covers himself in a dark cloak and hood to obscure his hideous form.

Version #2) Instead of twisting his body into a monstrous shape, the influence of darkness has turned the Shadow Walker into an incorporeal, ghostly form.  His body is gone, but the dark arts allow his soul to remain on the physical plane and to manipulate his surroundings in his ectoplasmic form.  He wields a ghostly sword that inflicts horrible wounds despite its immaterial nature and he hovers slowly but inexorably just above the ground.  When he is destroyed, his bond with the physical plane is severed and his form disperses, leaving only a collapsed black garment lying on the ground.

Edit: Included some reference images.

General appearance
General appearance
Possible sword
Another sword
Yet another sword
Possible helmet (for version #1)
Shoulder armor (for version #1)

[Mark]

lmfao i think you spent too much time doing that , why didn't you just model it

Actually, I did the whole post in 20 minutes, zipped it up and then posted it here.   Modeling would have taken awhile, but I have already modeled my favs.  Just no texture has been either applied or attempted.

Id think on a katana/scimitar design but long and thick(like the y as long and the z as thick not the x)

I really don't want him to look like some kind of master swordsman, I was hoping for more crudeness. 

Mark what do you think about something similar to the sword of the Persian sword man and the Dominion officer?

I know what the Persian one looks like, and I really don't like how it is so traceable and not fantasy at all really.  I have never played dominion.  Could you give me a screenshot?

Well no offense coz you might think 'FOR ALL THE WORK THAT I DID!!'

I thought that Archmage101 made Dominion? 

otherwise I agree with Loronal - a long and thin (if possible make it as dark black or red as possible) blade with sort of horns around the hilt - like a scimitar

Okay, I like your color ideas because they sound cool and I never thought of any colorings, but long and thin completely nullifies the crude and giantness of the sword that I thought I made painfully obvious I wanted.  But if the community wants it, well, they can have it for all I am concerned. 

That's what my imagination tells me.. I'll edit my post if I get another idea and if no one has posted after me

Good... We need good posters like you around here.

This is totally up for discussion

Oh, I agree immensely.  I am really at the end of my rope after spending a year trying to think it out.

here are some possibilities for what I think the Shadow Walker could be like.

I will respond in chunks, rather than all at once.

Version #1) The Shadow Walker was once a mighty swordsman until the forces of darkness corrupted his mind and warped his body, making him something not quite human.  He is quite strong but has lost some control over himself, so he wields a large sword that only the mightiest of mortal men could lift, but he swings it with one hand in a clumsy sweeping motion and he walks unhindered by his armor, but with an awkward shambling gait due to his twisted body.  He wears heavy spiked plate armor and covers himself in a dark cloak and hood to obscure his hideous form.

Okay, that is perfecto exactly what I had in mind, minus how he uses only one hand, and how he has a cloak.  I think that since he has nothing in his other hand, he should use both.  I had never thought of a cloak, but that sounds okay.  As long as it doesn't conceal his skeletal features and armor.  I mean, you can't have a guy wearing a cloak be supposedly heavily armored.  If it was barely hanging on his body, I would like that, but if not, IDK how you would show his armor.  BUT... I originally had him wearing a cape with a brooch by his neck connecting it, so maybe that is what you were saying.  And anyways, I don't think any of you are really capable of animating a full body cloak and a body-though I am not much better because I can't animate at all.

Version #2) Instead of twisting his body into a monstrous shape, the influence of darkness has turned the Shadow Walker into an incorporeal, ghostly form.

I had thought of that once, but had abandoned it rather than refining it because having gnawed at flesh would be too high poly and having transparency just really ruins the powerful look in my opinion. 

His body is gone, but the dark arts allow his soul to remain on the physical plane and to manipulate his surroundings in his ectoplasmic form. 

Again, not too sure about the ectoplasm, but I like how he is able to control his skeletal body with some kind of dark art... Very nice!    Just I don't want him to be manipulating his surroundings as a ranged attack.

When he is destroyed, his bond with the physical plane is severed and his form disperses, leaving only a collapsed black garment lying on the ground.

Jeez, can't people, even in games just fold their dirty laundry, and then place it gently on the floor in a basket?  What is this world coming to?!  No, really, I really like that idea.  Maybe he could also have his bones scattered around?  But just the garment sounds cool, too.

General appearance

I really want to keep this as far from LOTR as possible.  But in the book, the wraithlords are close to my idea of what a shadow walker is.

General appearance

Nice, I am digging the length of it, but again, I just can't run with that full body cloak.

Possible sword

I like the edges, but just not perfect.

Another sword

I suppose we could do that, but really, I just think that looks too frail.

Yet another sword

Nice!  I love that hilt guard! That is exactly what I was thinking about.

Possible helmet

Well, I like how it is very spiky, but in bronze it would be better.

Shoulder armor

Well, perfect, but what is to say about spiked pauldrons? the name says it all.  Just maybe if they were black-er and more giant and loose fitting, almost hanging off the body.

[omega]

Personally, I like the idea of a corporeal shadow walker, with a violent touch of dark purple (a color commonly attributed with evil). Of course, it doesn't need to be partially transparent, since that doesn't render well, but I kinda liked the idea. Up to you though. I'm all for an effing large sword though!

I never looked at any of the pics though... 

[Mark]

You should check out the pics.

[John.d.h]

Okay, that is perfecto exactly what I had in mind, minus how he uses only one hand, and how he has a cloak.  I think that since he has nothing in his other hand, he should use both.

I was kinda thinking that his body was deformed in a way that just about any kind of movement would be painful, so all of his animations would be somewhat unconventional, but I'm open to other possibilities.

I had never thought of a cloak, but that sounds okay.  As long as it doesn't conceal his skeletal features and armor.  I mean, you can't have a guy wearing a cloak be supposedly heavily armored.  If it was barely hanging on his body, I would like that, but if not, IDK how you would show his armor.  BUT... I originally had him wearing a cape with a brooch by his neck connecting it, so maybe that is what you were saying.  And anyways, I don't think any of you are really capable of animating a full body cloak and a body-though I am not much better because I can't animate at all.

I was thinking that he would have a hood to obscure his head to add sort of an air of mystery, like "what's really under all that armor?", kinda leaving that up to the players' imagination whether it was a person, a ghost, or some kind of monster.  I just found this picture that closely matches my concept, but without the misty aura stuff.  Capes do make animations a little bit more of a hassle, but not by much.

I had thought of that once, but had abandoned it rather than refining it because having gnawed at flesh would be too high poly and having transparency just really ruins the powerful look in my opinion.

I meant that he would still be mostly covered.  I think not knowing what's under the armor makes him a lot scarier.

Again, not too sure about the ectoplasm, but I like how he is able to control his skeletal body with some kind of dark art... Very nice!    Just I don't want him to be manipulating his surroundings as a ranged attack.

I just meant "manipulating his surroundings" in the same way a person would, but without a physical body (no flesh, no bones, nothing).

Maybe he could also have his bones scattered around?  But just the garment sounds cool, too.

The concept I was going with there actually has no bones or any physical body, but scattered bones could look pretty cool too.

I really want to keep this as far from LOTR as possible.  But in the book, the wraithlords are close to my idea of what a shadow walker is.

Bah!  I'm ashamed to admit it, but I've never actually read the books (except The Hobbit).

General appearance

Nice, I am digging the length of it, but again, I just can't run with that full body cloak.

Yeah, I was thinking that one would go along with version #2, which is really more ghost than man and hovers instead of walking.  I'll try to sketch up a concept of what I mean for both instances.

Possible helmet

Well, I like how it is very spiky, but in bronze it would be better.

Perhaps.  Personally I think having his head covered by a hood would be the best option, but I guess the face of his helmet would still show.

Shoulder armor

Well, perfect, but what is to say about spiked pauldrons? the name says it all.  Just maybe if they were black-er and more giant and loose fitting, almost hanging off the body.

Agreed.  I guess part of the misshapen body idea is that his armor probably doesn't fit so well.

Edit: Done with my sketches.  Will scan and post tomorrow.

[-Archmage-]

I'd love to model/animate something to do with the Shadow Walker.

[Kung Fu Panda]

I thought that Archmage101 made Dominion?

well you got me wrong there I meant... well nvm as it's gonna take some time - just I'm happy that it didn't turn out as I feared
yeah I think a long and thin sword would nullify the effects of 'evil' and 'gruesome' and 'cruel' and so on
Geez I didn't know i had such a vocabulary lol  
coming to the hood I have I good idea
the hood partially covers his head - leaving his face which can be covered by as a skeleton-skull-looking helmet as possible,
and drops all the way down BUT covers only the middle section of his back to reveal his gruesome shoulders and his side plate armor which can preferably be dark violet as mentioned by Omega but for the effect of shoulders to be maximized I think it should be a really bright color like umm, torch-red?
though if it would make a difference add some blood to the tips of the spikes if you think a different color would look more appropriate

PS what is WOTR? or whatever that was I can't find it in the page though I remember reading it!  
 
edit: Now that I come to think of what I said, it reminds me of Superman and Batman and those heroes!
though isn't it a good idea?
I'll post my idea of animations later coz I'm not that confident

[-Archmage-]

That could be meant to say LOTR for Lord of the Rings.........but I searched the page........nothing.............so IDK what your talking about.

[Kung Fu Panda]

lol am I getting hallucinations?
well do you like my idea?

[Sir modman]

I like version number one, the one where he is twisted up.  This is mostly to further differ from Magic, because if we go the ghost path, he could look very similar to the Ghost Armor.

Oh, and Mark, if the Shadow Walker was wearing a cape, you probably wouldn't see similarity to the Acolyte, because the Shadow Walker is much taller.  Also, it would look more like a shadow, and also be getting at a mysterious concept.

Personally I would like a twisted body in armor, but with a cape.  The twisting body, I think, is a great idea.  And the helmet John showed is great, as well as the shoulder armor.

Mark, please remember we're trying to keep poly count down, so he may not have "standard" armor.  But I do like how your knowledge of armor is helping with this unit.  Keep up the good work.

***Also, I was in the Dells last weekend, so that's why I didn't post.***

[omega]

Don't worry about the accuracy of the armor. The way I see it, if the body is twisted, why not the armor? That might look good...

*Envisions twisted, ugly beast from hell in his twisted, ugly mind*
YEAH!

PS: I'm curious how modman feels about the new Glest developement team.

[Mark]

I understand that the poly count should stay low.  If the community can come to a definitive conclusion, I will model it and can hopefully expect 600 - 800 polys.  I think that the real work on making this look good is in the texture, not the actual model.  Maybe we can make the cape frayed with some alpha if we make it one sided.  

[John.d.h]

Here's the sketch of my two concepts.  I couldn't really make the first one look as twisted and deformed as I'm imagining in my head because I traced his outline from an anatomical drawing I found, so just use your imagination on that.

[Assassin]

The concept on the right looks way cooler.

[Kung Fu Panda]

Nice drawing skills john   .... but you didn't say anything which means my idea wasn't accepted
anyway, if you want 'twisted bodies', did you check any zombie models from counter strike or something like that (just for the 'twists' I'm telling)
but I'm thinking.... you cannot get those minute details such as twists in the body and all those things very clearly in Glest right? (I'm not telling it's a bad idea) but what I'm telling is let's get finished with all the major details first then the minute ones eh what do you think?
you could give him the head somewhat like the head of haides in Hercules you know? the enemy of Hercules-the one with a flaming head and the helmet problem is solved 

[-Archmage-]

I was kind of hoping for a wrecked soul possessing a grand knight(without his steed of course)
Weapons: Kinda like this one(a 2h obviously)
Armor: Grand looking(one on the left)
Body, bones.................

Well what da ya think?

[Kung Fu Panda]

adventure quest or dragon fable?     

[-Archmage-]

I know one of those images is from Dragon Fable or AQ, but still, it''s just for concept.

[jda]

I was kind of hoping for a wrecked soul possessing a grand knight(without his steed of course)
Weapons: Kinda like this one(a 2h obviously)
Armor: Grand looking(one on the left)
Body, bones.................

Well what da ya think?

Well, I'm not at all part of GLADE or a modder anything else but... Read what was posted on the Shadow Walker from about page 17 and here are my 2 cents for whomever may want them:

My "concept" derives from the unit's name: Shadow Walker.

1. It is a shadow. None but black should be used in it! Ok, ok, I guess some very dark grey might be used in the texturing to outline some aspects of its look... but definitely NO other colors!
NO transparency required AT ALL! Opaque black means opaque/strong shadow, which conveys quite some dark evil on its own (real shadows are actually color darkening, NOT solid black!)! And also fits very well the idea of a stong warrior.
And definitely NO glow! Honestly, dark characters with glowing eyes just seem corny to me. 
That being said, the first thing that comes to my mind is some kind of cloaked character... BUT... it can work just as well with any other form, just as long as it PITCH-BLACK (I konw I'm being repetitive and somewhat scream-like  ). The cloak basically conveys a sense of some indistinction, but so can something like LONGNESS - long body, long head, long arms and legs - they do not need to be thin, if the character is tall...
Specially, more than any other unit, even in Dark Magic, the shadow should be Dark, Obscure and Misteriuos!
Matter of fact, the unit might just as well be all solid-black!!! Seriously!... Glest is 3d so you could already see some interesting forms just because of the model itself, even being the texture just solid black! That would really make the unit very shadowy...
But its opaque-shadow (assuming you liked that idea) might also benefit from some dark grey texturing here and there.

2. It is a Walker so it kind os suggests some walking animation... It does not need to show the legs however. It can just show their movement like e.g. the Magic Initiates do.
It should most likely NOT run!
It may not necessarily be a two-legged walk! An humanoid upper-body might perfectly fit something like e.g. crawling multi-arms...


Now that being said, and regarding what has been discussed earlier:

- Body-type: Cloaked vs Not-cloaked (possibly armored).
I pretty much covered this in talking about "shadow". Easiest association with shadow comes from cloaking. But black armored body may be a more original aproach that still gets acceptable association.
The second pic on archmage101 pretty much resembles something I thought about while reading the above discussion: a cloak that covers only the back and lets the front display the armor. In my conception though the helmet would cover all of the head and leave only two dark thin rectangles (or such) for the eyes (or even nothing if solid-black got to be the texture!). The helmet type could be anything and I'd personally ornament it with a couple mean horns. And a droped back hud on top of the cape would look nice too.
The twisted body concept gets a great example IMO on the first image. I really liked that too. Though the thin-shadow effect kind of gets lost there, the overall picture is not bad, and being kind of folded unto itself also gives it a kind of indistinction. The toes on the other hand I think are inadapted to the Shadow Walker. But the shape of the head provides good inspiration I think ... and longness! lol

- Weapon: I think a long, wide blade would be good - preferably NO scimitar likeness though it depends how (un)likely... I also like the two-blades concept. And I think it should be wielded with both hands.
On the other side,  John.d.h's idea of swingin "it with one hand in a clumsy sweeping", along with the concpet behind (dark forces twisting and corrupting his body) is a very interesting one too!


On a kind of side note... have you considered making it walk through usually unwalkable items like rocks, trees, even buildings (but NOT other movable units for gameplay sanity sake!).. That would be neat!...
And if you do, I guess the model and texturing should take that into acount as well.


EDIT: Darn! I just thought of something: Team color! Dough!... Well, just give it bloody team-color glowing eyes (sigh!) and team-color long hilt and hope for the best!
Hey, it wasn't my idea to have a Shadow Walker in the first place!
Edit #2: Oh, and maybe a team-color long necklace with a stone hanging over (or something like that, not very big), that shows who *owns* the Shadow Walker...

[-Archmage-]

I think it should have shadow armor, just texture it so it look like it has black armor, sort of for skin or something.

[jda]

"shadow armor"? Do you mean look like Magic's Ghost Armor (but with the difference you outlined)? I guess that could do - but I'd really really really like to at least see a cape in that case; otherwise...


On another matter, the download is really just so you can look at the models, textures, xmls and stuff, right? I though that although not fully playable yet, you would already be able at least start the game and see what the basic buildings and units look and "feel" like... Doesn't seem to be the case.

Well, as I'm too daft for anything else, guess I could just look at the xmls and see how the stats and balance look like... 
But I pro'ly won't... As I said before, I'm no modder, I was just curious...