GLADE Team Project: Dark Magic

[-Archmage-]

I'm curious why Glest's particles are so basic, yet they cause so much lag??
I mean, look at Crysis, they can have lots of flames and explosions going with better looks and performance than Glest(by far......unfortunately...).
Do we need to use a newer version of OpenGL or something?


Another thought I had other than addressing the main issue and fixing the particles, is to release it with minimal particles and low detail stuff customized for the best performance on slower computers, then have a pack with more particles and high detail stuff for people that want it... What do you guys think?

[ultifd]

I'm curious why Glest's particles are so basic, yet they cause so much lag??
I mean, look at Crysis, they can have lots of flames and explosions going with better looks and performance than Glest(by far......unfortunately...).
Do we need to use a newer version of OpenGL or something?

Not sure too...I think softcoder or titi could answer that...don't think softcoder checks this thread though...for more then one reason I guess.

Another thought I had other than addressing the main issue and fixing the particles, is to release it with minimal particles and low detail stuff customized for the best performance on slower computers, then have a pack with more particles and high detail stuff for people that want it... What do you guys think?

Yeah. I guess we'll have a total of 3 versions then... or maybe 4. (I think I would be fine (and I am right now) with current particles in DM...but if we had 8 flames...probably not like 60% of the community.)
1.) normal particles, works with vanilla glest too...
2.) GAE version.
3.) lower quality version...etc.
4.) ...not sure.

[Omega]

That's true, you could make different quality versions. Suppose though, that there could be a way to turn off the unit particle effects (since those are all just extra things) in Megaglest itself... Perhaps that would be a good feature request... (goes to request it).

[silnarm]

in glest.ini you should find,

Code: [Select]

UnitParticles=true
change it to false or add it if it's not there.

Particle systems aren't all that demanding, and I doubt anyone will notice much of an improvement by turning them off, Megaglest's performance problems are likely not related to particle systems.

[ultifd]

That's true, you could make different quality versions. Suppose though, that there could be a way to turn off the unit particle effects (since those are all just extra things) in Megaglest itself... Perhaps that would be a good feature request... (goes to request it).

Well, you can already. Not per each game though...so if you do request, request it like that I guess.
Right now if you want to turn off particles for all games, you can in the options menu, the inis, or the configurator.
I like particles though...and they don't really hurt my performance...for now...so I'm good with it.
EDIT: Man I post too slow... lol
Anyways, I might have asked softcoder already... :-/ like when I was typing...

[Omega]

Really? I didn't realize that, my bad.

So if there's already a method to turn it off, we don't need to split the versions, do we?

And I agree, the unit particles are great. But low-end computers like John's don't do so well with them...

[ultifd]

So if there's already a method to turn it off, we don't need to split the versions, do we?

Well...not really. I think it just depends on how Sir Modman is going to add the particles...if there was "8 fires on the spikes", then...when playing Dark Magic most people wouldn't want it, if it causes huge performance issues...I guess we'll see... Now if we had an option for particles per game, then for DM games people could just turn it off upon setting up their game...(for people like me I guess...not sure)...but you locked the other thread. Anyways, I'll just ask softcoder on the IRC Channel later.

At least it'll look cool...

[titi]

I just want to mention that you can switch off the particles in the in game options!
No need to edit ini files.

And for performance of particles, ... just try it, its not that demanding! I just wanted to mention it that hundrets of particles systems may have an effect

@archmage : Wow you compare us to crysis ?  

[-Archmage-]

@archmage : Wow you compare us to crysis ?  Grin Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Kiss

Why not?

I'm kinda curious how Crysis has such awesome particle effects and good performance, but Glest has very basic particles, and kinda crappy performance......

Now if we had an option for particles per game...

Ultifd's got a bright idea there...

[Mark]

When you switch particle effects on and off, does it remove the particle effect of the golem, archmage or dragon?  Or does it simply remove those of buildings?  I'm confused.

[ultifd]

When you switch particle effects on and off, does it remove the particle effect of the golem, archmage or dragon?  Or does it simply remove those of buildings?  I'm confused.

Just the special ones, the newer ones...I guess.
That reminds me, it looks like GAE 0.3 will support particles...I wonder if it is the same kinda...but 0.3 should be a long time from now, even maybe longer then MG 3.3.7 ...

Now if we had an option for particles per game...

Ultifd's got a bright idea there...

Thanks, but I already asked softcoder... and this might take some time to implement since there may be complications...
Lets just see how the Sorcery Runes Particles go...

[Mark]

I have made several icons for Dark Magic (13 actually).  They can be found

Code: [Select]

[size=18pt][url=http://www.filefront.com/17217597/DM Icons.zip]here[/url][/size]

[img]http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1563/newiconsi.png[/img]

[John.d.h]

I have made several icons for Dark Magic (13 actually).

Most of these are a significant improvement and I look forward to seeing them used.  However, the Imp attack, mine, stop, Devil Machine attack, and build are all problematic.

• Imp attack - Do I really need to say?
• Mine - Ditto.  The old one was decent, but a picture of the bowl from a different angle might be the way to go here.
• Stop - Inconsistent style.  The gradient and line thickness don't match the rest of the icons.  Also, the middle finger is bending the opposite way of its claw.
• Devil Machine attack - Doesn't match the geometric cleanliness of the others.
• Build - The perspective looks a little wonky.  The handle should be parallel to the vertical edges of the hammer head.

[Mark]

I have made several icons for Dark Magic (13 actually).

Most of these are a significant improvement and I look forward to seeing them used.  However, the Imp attack, mine, stop, Devil Machine attack, and build are all problematic.

• Imp attack - Do I really need to say?
• Mine - Ditto.  The old one was decent, but a picture of the bowl from a different angle might be the way to go here.
• Stop - Inconsistent style.  The gradient and line thickness don't match the rest of the icons.  Also, the middle finger is bending the opposite way of its claw.
• Devil Machine attack - Doesn't match the geometric cleanliness of the others.
• Build - The perspective looks a little wonky.  The handle should be parallel to the vertical edges of the hammer head.

1. I really don't know what you are trying to say.  I think it is a visible improvement over the old one, considering the fact that the imp attacks with claws, not a sword. 
2. Before I made these icons, and further, before I played dark magic's latest version, I had not played dark magic in glest since the days of the fury of the tiki.  So, when I saw the acolyte's mine image, I thought it was an attack and sent them out.  I don't know what I was thinking, but I was saved from a slaughter only when I sent in my alliyps.  The image was not good enough.  The new one is not very good, but certainly an improvement.  The other one didn't look like anything.  I agree that yes, a new one could be made.  Maybe a white bone-claw with gold and stone in it? 
3. I fixed the gradient and line thickness.  Thank you for alerting me to that.  I think the finger's problem is minor.
4. The devil machine's attack image is one that I think is less important.  I really have no idea what you mean by geometric cleanliness, unless you are referring to the circles it has or that it might be jagged along the pixels.
5. Yes, I need to fix it.  The original picture had none of the perspective problems.  However, because the embellishment in the images takes up most of the upper left and bottom right corners, in order to keep it visible I rotated it.  I should have made a new image.
Thank you for the critique.  I am glad that it came quickly, because tomorrow I will probably have forgotten all about this stuff (just kidding, though I certainly have the necessary enthusiasm now.)  I have implemented the icons I have made, with the fixes recommended by you, John, and I will continue to work on Dark Magic.  As the foley artist, I will now be working on sounds for the gargoyle.  I will have a loud, echoey thumping noise for the move, a heavy slicing sound for the attack, with grunts similar to a bulls for death, attack, and acknowledge sounds.

I would like to ask the community a question.  Several of the units in Dark Magic have particle attacks.  We could use the method that modman has pioneered, namely using the printscreens of the particles as images.  Or, we could follow the idea of magic, which has particle effects matching the theme, rather than being off-theme colors.  I am leaning toward the method pioneered by modman, even though it contradicts the theme.  What do you people think?

[John.d.h]

1. The Imp claw looks like it was drawn by a child with finger paint.  Sorry, but it's crap.  Also, we might need something that looks more different from the stop icon than this does.
2. The old one is a picture of the Acolyte's mining bowl.  If you want to do one more similar to Magic's mining icon, go for it.  The one you've made here, though, is sloppy.
3. Not really a big deal, but it would take no more than a minute to fix, right?
4. By "geometric cleanliness", I mean that on the other icons, we've got smooth curves, precise angles, and overall a very geometric appearance like something that came out of a machine.  The one you've made looks more hand-drawn.  Does that make more sense?
5.

I would like to ask the community a question.  Several of the units in Dark Magic have particle attacks.  We could use the method that modman has pioneered, namely using the printscreens of the particles as images.  Or, we could follow the idea of magic, which has particle effects matching the theme, rather than being off-theme colors.  I am leaning toward the method pioneered by modman, even though it contradicts the theme.  What do you people think?

Hmm... dunno.  *waits for other people to comment*

[Mark]

1. The Imp claw looks like it was drawn by a child with finger paint.  Sorry, but it's crap.  Also, we might need something that looks more different from the stop icon than this does.
2. The old one is a picture of the Acolyte's mining bowl.  If you want to do one more similar to Magic's mining icon, go for it.  The one you've made here, though, is sloppy.
3. Not really a big deal, but it would take no more than a minute to fix, right?
4. By "geometric cleanliness", I mean that on the other icons, we've got smooth curves, precise angles, and overall a very geometric appearance like something that came out of a machine.  The one you've made looks more hand-drawn.  Does that make more sense?

1. Point taken.  it was supposed to be blood.  I would give an excuse, but your attitude is the 'cut the crap' one, which is probably appropriate here.   I should probably remove the hair on the claw, too. 
2. I really don't see what you mean.  Do you dislike the somewhat arbitrary nature of the gold and stone in the basket?  Do you think the lines are badly drawn?
3. I did fix it, though I am surprised you picked that one out of the many errors of equal magnitude to choose from. 
4. Gotcha.  The way I did them was by using steps: step 1 is drawing  an outline in a jagged line, step 2 is filling it in with color and a gradient, and 3 is going over the old lines with a thick, smooth line to give it a burnished look.  I guess I forgot step 3.  Oops!

[John.d.h]

1. Point taken.  it was supposed to be blood.  I would give an excuse, but your attitude is the 'cut the crap' one, which is probably appropriate here.   I should probably remove the hair on the claw, too. 

The whole hand is rather sloppy-looking.  Since some of the other attack icons are screenshots, maybe try taking one of the Imp's claw and using that?  Let's try it and see how it looks.

2. I really don't see what you mean.  Do you dislike the somewhat arbitrary nature of the gold and stone in the basket?  Do you think the lines are badly drawn?

The gold and stone are just blobs.  They don't look like anything.

I would give an excuse, but your attitude is the 'cut the crap' one, which is probably appropriate here.

It's not necessarily that.  It's just that, well, these two frankly are not good enough.  Most of them are, but the mining and imp attack in particular aren't up to par.

[claymore]

+1 for keeping the old icons.

[wyvern]

Sorry but I like the screenshot images more then your drawings, in most cases, still there are some that I like

[Mark]

Sorry but I like the screenshot images more then your drawings, in most cases, still there are some that I like

It's alright.  I like the screenshots much more.

1. Point taken.  it was supposed to be blood.  I would give an excuse, but your attitude is the 'cut the crap' one, which is probably appropriate here.   I should probably remove the hair on the claw, too. 

The whole hand is rather sloppy-looking.  Since some of the other attack icons are screenshots, maybe try taking one of the Imp's claw and using that?  Let's try it and see how it looks.

I thought you wanted it to conform to the theme?  The reason we have screens for images of the others is that they have particle attacks, which are hard to translate onto my other method.  I originally made one doing just that, taking a screen from the model.  It looks like a blob, and in order to conform it to the theme and the size constraints I had to turn it into what looked like a circle with random pixels inside.  But, since I agree with your criticism, I have removed the hair, the pink stuff, and have smoothed the lines and moved them into a curved shape, so it looks like a half-closed claw with long fingers.

2. I really don't see what you mean.  Do you dislike the somewhat arbitrary nature of the gold and stone in the basket?  Do you think the lines are badly drawn?

The gold and stone are just blobs.  They don't look like anything.

I think you are right, but I can't come up with that, and I am working on other stuff, so it would be great if someone else would do it.

TO EVERYONE: Does anyone know where the construction/destruction models for the blood fountain, that I made, can be found?  It is not in the new Dark Magic, and since my computer's crash, it is gone.  I can't find it anywhere.  Anybody?

[John.d.h]

I thought you wanted it to conform to the theme?  The reason we have screens for images of the others is that they have particle attacks, which are hard to translate onto my other method.  I originally made one doing just that, taking a screen from the model.  It looks like a blob, and in order to conform it to the theme and the size constraints I had to turn it into what looked like a circle with random pixels inside.  But, since I agree with your criticism, I have removed the hair, the pink stuff, and have smoothed the lines and moved them into a curved shape, so it looks like a half-closed claw with long fingers.

I don't know, man.  If you can make it look good in-game, I don't really care what method you use.  From your description, it sounds like it'll be good.

TO EVERYONE: Does anyone know where the construction/destruction models for the blood fountain, that I made, can be found?  It is not in the new Dark Magic, and since my computer's crash, it is gone.  I can't find it anywhere.  Anybody?

I don't have it on my computer anywhere, but it might be in an old archive on MediaFire.  I'll take a look.

Edit: This? http://www.filefront.com/17227068/blood_fountain.7z

[modman]

The biggest XML problem I have in Dark Magic is as follows.  From a stats standpoint, what should be the difference between the Morlock and the Devil Machine?  They are both swarm units.  So right now I see several options:

Option 1
The Devil Machine will have far stronger armor and better HP than the Morlock.  It will be more expensive accordingly.  This option works well with my initial plan of making the Devil Machine a pet of the Dark Elder in GAE.

Option 2
Make the Devil Machine less expensive and, accordingly, given less armor and HP than the Morlock.  It might make sense if the units are produced in bulk.  Again, they are swarm units.

Option 3
Nix either the Devil Machine or the Morlock.  They are too similar anyways, right?

Are there other possibilities?  Yes.  GAE allows me to give units more "abilities" like emanations (which could be constructive to friendlies or destructive to enemies).  However, the issue of HP vs. armor vs. resource cost is at the core of the question, and matters more because GAE and MegaGlest aren't merged yet.

Please give me your input.  Which option do you prefer?

---

Second, I realize that the Gods Bane and Shade are too strong, as ultifd pointed out.  But I like to turtle, so I'm hoping to compromise.  (But I realize a distinct possibility that a compromise should not be made.)  Here is my proposed model:

• Both the Shade and Gods Bane are initially weaker in HP, armor, and attack damage
• There is an upgrade which can improve them, maybe back to current strength
• The duration of the upgrade can be modified for balance (even to a ridiculous amount of time like five minutes)
• My proposed name for the upgrade is "Hercules Blood" but could be improved.  (In Greek mythology, gods fought with men, so it is a fitting name for something which improves a Gods Bane.)
• I am undecided on which unit is to do the upgrade.  If no one stops me, I will probably have the Gods Bane do it (thus making it very difficult for the AI to finish it uninterrupted), but other possibilities are the Divination Crystal and the Enchantment Tower.

[-Archmage-]

Option 1
The Devil Machine will have far stronger armor and better HP than the Morlock.  It will be more expensive accordingly.  This option works well with my initial plan of making the Devil Machine a pet of the Dark Elder in GAE.

 
I think the Devil Machine should be stronger and a bit less of a swarm unit than the Morlock. Why? The Devil Machine is made out of metal, so it deserves strong armor, and having that will make it more effective, and then for balance of course you'd have a higher cost for the unit, making it harder to use in swarms.

GAE and MegaGlest aren't merged yet.

That has been discussed many times, and the devs have said they won't be merging.

[Mark]

I prefer option 1 as well.

Edit: This? http://www.filefront.com/17227068/blood_fountain.7z

No, but I will find it.  That is Titi's

[Mark]

Code: [Select]

[size=28pt][url=http://www.filefront.com/17229228/dark_magic v. 10-8-23.zip]Download Dark Magic v. 10-8-23![/url][/size](37 Megabytes)

Greetings.  I have made several changes to the faction, enough (in my opinion) to warrant a new release.  This release is called Dark Magic v. 10-8-23, as apparently we are using the Linux system, which I had previously disliked, but now accept. 
The file is approximately 37 Megabytes compressed, and 55 Megabytes uncompressed.  It was previously approximately 78 Megabytes uncompressed, so I have clearly made your downloads easier.  Here is how I eliminated extra size:
1.   Huge Textures: Several units (Harpy, Shadow Walker, Blood Fountain, et cetera et alibi) have textures that are 512.  These are unnecessary, as glest renders them as if they were somewhere between 128 and 256.  I have marked down these textures to 256, and in the case of the shadow walker, 128.  Don’t complain.  You wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.  Taking it from 512 to 256 saves ¾ of a meg, and down to 128 saves an entire megabyte.
2.   Wasteful Textures: Some textures have vast quantities of blank space, which, if removed, could make the texture much smaller.  I have tried to do what I can, but I can’t fix them all. 
3.   3. Extra Models and Textures: Textures take up lots of space.  An unanimated, 500 poly building model will use up approximately 50 kilobytes.  A 512 texture uses up 1 meg.  So, when I came across extra, unused models or textures, I removed them and put them in a separate folder.  If anyone wants access to this folder, I can grant it to them. 

Just in case any of you are going to be scumbags and not download, play, and comment on the faction, I have some pics of the modeling work I have done for the faction.

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[img]http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/413/bloodfountain.png[/img]

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[img]http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7434/divinationcrystal.png[/img]

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[img]http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8669/sorceryrunes.png[/img]

P.S. to all Glade Modders-This is the last release in which there is likely to be new models, and probably the last for new textures.  Now it is time for sounds to be done, as that is the only area that the faction still borrows magitech material for.  So make sure you enjoy playing it, but try to think of ideas for voices, especially for the morlock and imp, as those are tricky as far as sounds go.  Other than that, maybe we will do some XML tweaking, or whatever John.d.h and Sir Modman want.  Thank you for the continuing interest, help and support.